I don’t see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
This is pretty surprising to me. In my experience (as a woman myself) women are much more likely than men to be vocally supportive of treating sex work like any other service and of breaking the taboo of offering or receiving those services.
I actually can’t think of any woman in my life who would judge someone negatively for seeing a sex worker (assuming full consent from all involved parties including partners). Most men I know would similarly have no issue with it, but a handful would read it as not being able to get laid and see that as something negative.
My social circle isn’t representative of the general population, but I’m still surprised to hear your experience is dramatically different. I wonder if the way the conversations are going make the issue more about consent, cheating, or other non-sex-work-specific ethical questions.
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People supporting sex work being legal and the non-acceptance of people using sex workers in illegal/non consensual situations are congruous positions.
I think more women would be understanding to men paying for sex than men would be to women paying for it.
You should definitely bring this up as often as possible. Enjoying coerced intimacy is totally well adjusted behavior.
Why do you hate sex workers?
real big-brain take
Since it’s safe to assume you don’t talk to people in real life, here’s a mass of “reviews” of sex workers. People who buy sex are disgusting.
Says the person with “McCainRBGcreampie” as a username.
I don’t get it
Big shocker there…
Why are you talking about this with potential partners lmao?
mmmm gonna go out on a limb and say it’s most likely for the same reason he started this thread
Do you make use of the sex workers while in the relationship with the new partner?
Absolutely not
Then why speak of it?
I don’t talk about previous sexual partners with new ones.
For the purpose of disclosure. I just cant live with myself if I do not tell prospective partners when they ask. I know there is a difference between avoidance and lying, however, I value honesty. Not implying that you are not or should thinknas I do
Last year I shit myself while trying to open my door and get to the bathroom.
I dropped my keys while I was trying to unlock the door and ended up with shit in my shoes that I had to throw away.
I never bring that up on dates.
This story made my panties wet.
What an amecdote. Thank you for lightening my mind lol
I get your point, but I think that’s a bit of a false equivalence. You don’t tell others of stuff like this likely because it’s embarrassing, but what if someone isn’t embarrassed of using sex services? Is it really the same thing then?
You have an over-sharing problem.
I can’t agree. I think people should have a friendship as strong as their romance.
Is it typical to give a whole run-down of your sexual history when dating? Like, I’ve mentioned previous encounters or exes when it comes up, but rarely near the beginning of the dating process. In my experience people tend to not have those discussions. Not because it’s bad but because it doesn’t matter. When I meet a new woman and start seeing them, I don’t need to hear about or care about their past relationships unless it’s something they feel they want to share for whatever reason.
It sounds like you don’t think sex work is immoral, so I wouldn’t bring it up unless it’s something that would actually affect your current relationship. If sex is casual enough to commodify then it’s not something that would be brought up when getting to know someone. Do you also give them a run-down of every meal you’ve ever bought at restaurants?
The fact that you need to “disclose” this makes it sound like you yourself see an issue with it
OP’s out there on first dates asking if they have a problem with him doing it…
I can’t imagine women are bringing it up
Not necessarily first dates. I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up. I don’t want to have it be a problem further down the line
I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up
It’s just really hard to believe a women asks if you’ve had sex with a sex worker…
Most people don’t ask for numbers, let alone details.
I think the issue is the portrayal of the types of men who use such services in media. They’re usually not good people.
What incredible acting, I felt like I was there
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/-2LUssy5lwA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
They don’t want to date a man who is regularly going to sex workers?
Yeah I’m not sure why or how this would be a topic of conversation when, yknow, dating women.
@Driftking@lemmy.ml What have you been telling these women?
Yeah it should be legalized.
What people do with their bodies is their own choice.
So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved
This is pretty much my view on people’s sexuality generally.
I don’t care who’s doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
Does getting paid still counts as “sans coercion” though ?
There’s a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it’s a grey area if it’s legal
Like, off the street there’s probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it’s less likely they’re forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there’s likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who’s selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.
When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can’t regulate an illegal business.
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
The thing is we can’t know because it’s illegal in most places.
There’s some who only take clients they’re attracted to anyways and manage to pull in a lot of money.
There’s some that if they dont make X amount of money a night, they’ll get beat.
Anyone that claims to know how much are in each group are pulling numbers out of their ass. And people that act like they’re all the same are usually using the services of people who are forced into it.
Not all sex work is equal ethically.
But generally speaking, the less legal it is, the worse they’re treated. Because they have no legal recourse if they’re mistreated
Also like, people work dangerous jobs where they DIE because they need to money to pay rent and buy food, so only caring about sex workers is kind of fucked up.
Sex work is the most dangerous job in the world. They have a higher number of victims of violence and PTSD than any other profession. For PTSD only war veterans have similar results.
Pretty sure truck driver is the most dangerous job in the world.
In Germany the majority (about 95 %) of sex workers are people from the poorest countries of EU. Because of the high demand and the amount of money you can make with brothels there is also an increase in trafficking from countries outside of the EU.
Regulated does not mean people weren’t pressured into it. Telling a young single mother from a poor country that most of her problems will vanish if she just works as a sex worker for a few years in Germany is legal and regulated. It’s not trafficking and not really coercion either. She will get a social security number, pay taxes, get health care, all that stuff she perhaps won’t get at home.
What do you think she will tell you if you ask her whether she is doing the job freely and if she wants to keep the job? Of course she will say yes.
But is it really just like any other job? The fact that sex workers in countries where it is regulated still suffer disproportionately from mental health problems, alcohol and drug abuse tells a different story.
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I’m helping them. They’ve made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily–it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It’s interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.
It’s not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.
I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
That’s literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We’re all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.
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All work is exloitation, sexual work is sexual exploitation. Its not exactly consent if the other option is being homeless or starving.
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
However, I don’t live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.
The men who use their services? That’s a tougher nut to crack.
My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he’s still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child’s libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don’t think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There’s also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to…
I’d be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he’s not actually getting much out of such a “relationship.” He’s the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He’s not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don’t think.
Also, there’s other types of men who use these services I’m sure aren’t a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they’re not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don’t want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women’s bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.
I don’t know if it’s “right” that this type of person pays for sex. I think it makes sense as long as they respect the person that they’re paying and understand this person does not ‘belong’ to them - but this last point appears to be a problem for people whenever they pay anyone for anything.
There’s plenty of other types, those were just the ones I had time to write about before I pop off to work for the day.
Your comment led me towards an amusing thought: in the Harry Potter universe, goblins sell things to wizards for the duration of the wizard’s life, but then they expect it to go back to the goblins because ownership works differently for them vs wizards. Wizards don’t always/usually understand or respect that. So… If I ever was in the position to open a brothel, perhaps I’d name it “The Goblin’s Den.” I… Don’t know what kind of clientele that would attract though.
Weird cross over but okay :D
I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.
That would be me. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I just want regular, casual, no strings attached sex.
Unfortunately I can’t actually afford sex workers, but some day…
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
You see, that’s the problem. You are implicitly devaluing sex work compared to other professions. You’re not acknowledging that some people actually want to, and choose to do sex work. There’s nothing wrong whatsoever with someone choosing prostitution, stripping, escort, etc.
Could you say your same statement about being a lawyer? A teacher? An engineer?
“I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to being an engineer.”
You see how weird that sounds? So why can you say it about sex work? Do you see how derisive you’re being toward it as a profession? Funny that you say you’re supportive while implying that what they’re doing is a last resort…🤦♂️
I think the error is on your side. Nothing that OC said denies that some sex workers like and choose what they do. These exist.
But it’s doubtable that these are in majority, and nothing what you say acknowledges that many many sex workers don’t have much choice.
Check yourself dude. The mere fact that you say “it’s doubtable these are in the majority” shows EXACTLY what you think of sex work. Your attitude of “ugh that’s so pitiful, no one would do that willingly, they must be forced into it” is fucking offensive.
Millions of people feel stuck in their jobs and “don’t feel like they have much choice.” Walmart, coffee shops, data entry, whatever. But if it’s sex work, all of a sudden it’s something to be ashamed of?
Yeah, sure there’s trafficking out there, and that is horrible. But don’t conflate the two. Don’t just assume that someone doing sex work is being trafficked. Just like you don’t constantly assume someone doing any other job must also be a trafficked slave or something. Get it?
Pretty sure I currently have the Philippines and Thailand more in mind than you.
Written like a defensive john. Sorry she didnt enjoy fucking you bro
I get you point but I genuinely want to live in a world where people are not forced to turn to engineering.
I chose engineering, and when I started I loved it, but eventually I ended up working in places I didn’t like, on jobs that made me feel dirty, but now I don’t know any other way to maintain the lifestyle I’m accustomed to.
Have you thought about stripping?
Thank you for putting what’s pretty much exactly my view on the topic into words.
I would like to add though that I expect of men using sex services to thoroughly check and make sure that the women whose service they use provide this service by their own choice, which means they are in no way forced, not by pimps but also not by financial hardship.
With this constraint I’m afraid that many if not most existing sex services are actually probably not ethical to use.
I know you probably mean prostitutes or “escorts”, but aren’t porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren’t “allowed” to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
You are correct, but people treat “prostitute” like it’s a slur and thereby (wittingly or not) wildly obfuscate any conversation one attempts to have about them and their clientele, etc.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don’t have a lot of options for making money. With sex it’s really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can’t really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that’s utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I’d be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
I’ve known people who are sex workers and they’re some of the most talented and intelligent people I’ve ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that’s who they are. There’s nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Yeah, pretty much, it’s one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It’s just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don’t mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I’m sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can’t really be confident what they are doing isn’t ultimately exploitation.
I couldn’t really pin down exactly what my problem with sex work was until reading this. I try not to judge, but I’ve always found it problematic and I do find myself feeling like it shouldn’t have to be a thing. Anecdotally, every person I’ve interacted with who brought the topic up always joked about wanting to do it just for the money.
The fact that it’s paid for as a service makes it inherently open to exploitation, and thus unethical.
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
The Nordic or neo-abolitionist model exists. Sweden was the first nation to implement it I think. Selling sex is legal, buying is not. Seems to work for them
You’ve got that backwards. In Sweden, buying is illegal, selling is not. Essentially turning the customer into a rapist and the seller into a victim. And rightly so! Considering that most women selling sex are doing so because of human trafficking, or at least coercion or desperation, it’s cruel, immoral, and ironic that they are criminalized in the rest of the world outside of Sweden and the other countries that have followed their model.
Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.
I think you are agreeing with the post above yours. They said that selling sex is legal, while buying is not.
Yes. My mistake. Thanks.
That’s exactly what I said. I’ll just quote myself here:
Selling sex is legal, buying is not.
Apologies. I swear I reread your comment 3 times, and each time I replaced legal with illegal in my mind. I see it now!
Seems to work for them.
Do you know something I don’t? From what I hear both sex workers and johns continue to exist, just like in the old abolitionist/prohibitionist model.
The point isn’t to prohibit it, it’s to give the prostitute the legal advantage when reporting the john (and thereby rein in the behavior of johns with the tacit threat)
Well that’s nice, but I feel like it could also be abused. What if a prostitute (which is one kind of sex worker) threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
It’d probably be best to regulate the entire thing as a legal industry and put in place some sort of watchlist for suspected bad johns.
What if a prostitute . . . threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
They already can and sometimes do, usually as honeypots (here I mean the criminal kind). “Blackmail is illegal” and also blackmailing someone being very dangerous are two major elements preventing it. I don’t think making buying legal would be a significant factor since usually the blackmail is on the level of social standing, not getting charged with a relatively minor crime (generally a misdemeanor). Furthermore, especially because prostitution exists more in the open in these societies, the prostitute who blackmails would also have her reputation damaged quite severely, to the point that it might not be viable for her to continue her profession if it gets out that she even attempted blackmail – to say nothing of the fact that, not to beat a dead horse, having someone who absolutely hates your guts (the victim) makes being a prostitute much more dangerous: What if this is one of the old john’s friends or someone he hired to hurt you?
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex. Prostitutes are much more likely to be desperate – though less likely in these countries than in a place like the US.
Well, there’s some good arguments there. But making something you want people to do illegal is certainly counterintuitive and doesn’t seem like a sane approach to me.
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex.
Ah, so you do want to prohibit sex work. I get that’s not what you think you’re saying, but prostitutes can’t exist without johns, and so it doesn’t fall under “support sex workers”. Now, abolishing sex work is a thing intelligent, well-meaning people argue for as well, but that’s a different conversation.
It’s pretty straight forward, really.
hexbear user being utterly predictable
good to see we’re renowned for our correct opinions already
Can’t make a proper argument- check
Must rely on memes and gifs to communicate- check
On the rare occasion they actually put their big boy pants on and write some text it’s super offensive/racist/bigoted- check
Hexbear user confirmed.
racist
What, do you think cracker is a slur?
Support prostitutes by means other than being a John. Do a Holden Caulfield if you like and pay for their time to just hang out, idk. The John is instinsically in a position of power by using money to be entitled to sex, and is part of the social violence of coercing desperate people into dangerous and frequently traumatizing* labor.
*look up ptsd rates
Also don’t forget how many of these women are already struggling with mental health issues.
In the USA, if you are on disability, you are effectively barred from saving money.
I know of plenty of disabled women who turn to sex work to be able to pay the bills since their meager disability check is not enough to effectively live off. It is all under the table so they essentially just don’t report the earnings.
So many of these women really don’t need the added awfulness of being a sex worker in their lives, but do it out of necessity of a broken system.
Most of what I know is informed by stereotypes from various facets of American pop culture and not reality so my opinion is not valuable
I’d say share it anyway, could still be a really insightful or useful perspective
No, they’re a hexbear user.
She’s a hexbear user. We have pronoun tags for a reason. She doesn’t state they/them as her pronouns so please edit your post to not misgender her.
“They” is a more general word and does not specify gender. Personally I use that word when I want it to be clear I am not implying that gender is relevant to my statement. It isn’t inaccurate and people shouldn’t always have to include references to gender in everything they say.
Every. Single. Fucking. Time. I point out misgendering and some cissie has the fucking nerve to argue with me why blatantly degendering women, a common smear tactic among British terfs btw, isn’t a bad thing akshually. “oH i’M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn’T rElEvAnT”, the fuck are you talking about, respecting trans people’s gender is ALWAYS relevant, you do not get to decide on this. This is our decision alone, to deny trans people the autonomy over their gendered self expresion and gender recognition is a textbook case of transphobia.
To make this perfectly clear: There is ONE, just ONE, correct response when somebody calls you out for misgendering somebody. It’s apologizing and correcting your mistake. That’s a tiny thing to do and takes a fraction of the time it takes to argue with me, and it will cause you one millionth of the distress you’re up for when you act transphobic in my presence. If she would be fine with being they / themed, she would have given they / them as a second set of pronouns. Why is that so hard to understand?
I’m sharing my opinions about language, not being transphobic. What I said is not specific to trans women, I had no reason to think the woman replied to was transgender. If you think my disagreeing with you means I must secretly hate you because you’re trans, you’re wrong, but I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.
“oH i’M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn’T rElEvAnT”
That’s a distortion of what I said. My claim is not that the non-relevance of gender morally justifies using non-gendered language, I’m not trying to be defensive. It’s that a statement using gendered language and a statement not using gendered language is a different expression, the meaning is affected. Think about when singular ‘they’ was less well accepted, and it was more common in writing to use ‘he’ as a catch-all term. Yes, readers understood that it was possible the person being referred to was a woman despite the use of the word ‘he’, but that word still conveyed assumptions about the world. What if that isn’t your actual intent? Then you don’t use gendered words. That is a legitimate choice.
I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.
Gee, thanks for your pity, but i don’t need that. Most of my friends are cis and i know what it’s like when cis people treat me with compassion and respect, as most people are actually capable of that. It’s not that hard. They listen when i voice my grievances and understand that i have a different, yet valid perspective on such things than them, and that they can learn something from that to be more inclusive in the future. Probably because they understand that calling out transphobia doesn’t mean calling somebody a transphobe. I would’ve used different language than that if my impression would have been malice instead of ignorance.
This is our decision alone
nobody is saying you can’t identify or specify whatever pronouns you want. But it laughable to say it’s your decision if other people use them in the name of “tolerance,” of all things
Your insistence on ordering trans people around and telling us if we´re allowed to find open misgenderings to be offensive would be laughable if it wouldn’t be so disgusting. Pronouns are not a polite request to pretty please tone down your transphobia out of the kindness of your heart, respecting our pronouns is the absolute bare minimum of respect you can show towards us.
You write a wall of text an get all worked up just because someone used “they” just to be neutral. No one is going to check your profiles one by one just to know your pronouns. This is the real world, no whatever crazy wuerdo echo chamber is hexabear.
Maybe your suicide rates wouldn’t be so high if you didn’t get offended for basically nothing. Is not that you get discrimination against you, is that you can handle society as everyone else can.
Pronouns don’t mean shit, just grow up man
Lmao : 🤣
My idea of what the average sex worker client is like isn’t positive, but I wouldn’t hold it against someone I already know to be upstanding if I found out they had used one’s services.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don’t think that there’s anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you’ll typically see prices starting at $400+ for “full service”. They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don’t do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with “new girls”, frequently Asian. These women–most of the people exchanging sex for money are women—in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an “agency”. It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren’t doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn’t care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that’s unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn’t it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that’s a question of culture, but it’s entertaining to think about nonetheless…
Like, there’s definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I’d say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there’s something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
Because people want to have sex with someone who actually finds them attractive.
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Well sure, we can take it as a given that sex basically exists in its own special category. Biologically speaking, it’s an impulse older than almost any other. I think that’s self-evident enough without any need to tap into mysticism.
(Content warning: sexual violence in human history, abstract)
With that being said, it could also be argued that r-word is also deeply ingrained within human biology, particularly in the context of warfare. Even if we discount the (extensive) evidence within the anthropological record demonstrating this, there are clues baked into human physiology which seem to indicate that the human species itself is uniquely adapted to perpetrating r-word when compared amongst the other hominid species.
(Content warning concluded)
I apologize for bringing such a nasty subject up at all, but it’s useful to weigh such things when talking about the deep biological roots of sex and how it makes us think/feel. I personally believe that it’s too limiting to describe sex as an implicitly pure thing which only becomes wrong when certain impure people corrupt it. Please don’t take that as a doomer statement! I personally see it as a triumpth that, through culture, we can collectively transform an act as ambiguous as sex into an idealized and pure expression of interpersonal love. I nevertheless do still try to be mindful of the capacity for sex to exist outside of the box we’ve crafted for it, though.
Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.
And some people don’t view sex that way. And sex work isn’t just about having an orgasm. That’s what masturbation is for. My understanding is that people who frequent sex workers do it for the human connection. That doesn’t mean an emotional connection, but human touch and physical intimacy are important for all human’s mental health. I’ve heard stories from sex workers where the customer doesn’t even end up wanting sex but to talk a bit and have someone hold them for a bit. Usually they prefer the respectful ones who just want sex with a human and leave though.
Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.
Yes, this is what I was getting at.
Do you not have a concept of personal space? Having a person you don’t care for literally inside your body is rather different than serving them a meal. Do you think that forcing someone to give you a haircut is the same as forcing them to have sex?
Personally i don’t understand how anyone can enjoy having sex with someone who isn’t into it. The whole idea is repulsive and i think anyone who enjoys that must be very lacking in empathy.
I can tell I’ve struck a nerve here. I apologize for the harm that has caused. I am sorry.
And, yes. I do have a concept of personal space. I do think that forced sex is worse than a forced haircut. I understand the point you’re getting at, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t try to make it in such a forceful way next time. Thank you for responding.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don’t want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I’m not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it’s been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say “you don’t pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards”.
I’ve known sex workers who do it because they love sex, and if they’re gonna be out there having a lot of sex they might as well also get loads of money from it.
To be fair, about half of them then got into drugs and started doing it to keep up their drug habit…before the drugs they were very choosy about their clients and only picked the ones they liked, but afterwards they needed more money so they dropped standards.
But the other half were just getting paid to go on dates and have sex, which is what they’d be doing anyway.
I don’t hire sex workers because I don’t have the money for it lol. But if I did, I’d want one like that. I have no idea how rare it is.
I hold no prejudices. In general, I try not to judge anyone until I’ve got to know them, what their values are, etc.
I hired an escort once. It was awkward. First, I was paranoid about it being a sting or something. Then, I was worried about getting my wallet stolen. When “it” was over, I started getting up to leave, then the women was like “your time’s not up yet,” then laid beside me and started a conversation about q-anon type stuff. Lady had some mental issues, which made me feel kinda bad about the whole thing (and a little bit scared at the time, lol).
Anyways, I would never bring this up on a date or even to a partner (or friend). It is completely irrelevant to a relationship. If asked directly if I’ve ever hired a sex worker, I would lie. There’s a lot of stigma around sex workers and their clients, even with people who are generally more “accepting.” Someone could be a good potential partner, friend, or whatever, but have one weird hang-up about not dating someone who was a “john,” and I wouldn’t want to exclude them from being a potential partner/friend just because of that.
I hired an escort once when drunk at like 2am. I couldn’t get hard so we just talked for 30 minutes or so and I left.
I do tell people, including dates, if they ask or it comes up. Mostly because I find it an amusing story and people get amused. My dates haven’t reacted negatively so far. I’m sure some will but typically I try to filter them before we get to that point.
I don’t like judgy people or super-prudes.
Because of the poor treatment of the workers due to it being illegal, I’d say the majority are not great to terrible people.
If they go to legal, well managed brothels, they’re probably ok people.
But if it’s illegal there wouldn’t be legal brothels around?
And I haven’t followed through but I’ve looked into prostitution in my area through various means. There do seem to be fairly moral options in my opinion. People who work independent and interact directly with the customer and they keep all the money. They have their own space to meet and they have the option of refusal at any time.
I’m not saying you’re doing this intentionally, or that what you’re saying is harmful, but I do worry. It feels like you’re demonizing an entire industry and adding to the idea that it’s immoral unless done through brothels. Sex work is work, and while often people end up there out of necessity, that’s not much different than any other job people work these days. I would say that people who knowingly pay for sex work where the worker doesn’t have their full autonomy is, at best, selfish and shortsighted.
Or are you saying that because it’s a crime, by paying for it they’re contributing to the sex worker also doing something illegal and that’s bad?
It’s not illegal everywhere. I think their point is that legal and licensed brothels are less likely to be exploitative and involved in human trafficking.
Sure, not all sex work where it is illegal is exploitative, but I’m not sure most clients would shop around for the ethical choice like you have.
Yes. This. Words are hard.
I absolutely believe sex work is work and I support it. I live in the USA where it is illegal. This leads to vilifying sex workers. A lot of them are victims. This makes any dealings with sex workers suspect. The typical “law abiding citizen” wouldnt go.
I’ve been to Germany and it’s treated like a business transaction. (Not cold, just not shady or unusual). I feel like anyone that went there would be just a normal guy.
If you’re paying for sex in the west, then my opinions are more nuanced and less harsh since, economically speaking, workers here are generally in a better position to choose their profession, including sex work, without any coercion other than the standard coercion of capitalism.
However, if you’re a sexpat traveling to developing and underdeveloped countries, you deserve to be thrown into the pit. Sex workers here are more likely to be poorer, desperate, pimped out, and/or trafficked by the mafia. Not to mention many are underage. There is no choice for 99% of the sex workers, or any workers. I don’t care if the age of consent there is 12, you’re still going to into the pit.
I think you are underestimating the desperation of the very poor in austerity states like the US, but you are 100% right that sexpats are scum
I don’t believe I am underestimating. Im just saying that in the west, there is a higher chance (relative to third world countries) that you can decide to become a sex worker on your own volition. Obviously there are still pimps and poverty driving the scene, but you’re likely never going to find someone in say, Vietnam or Thailand, or who just got tired of office work and decided to become a pornstar or escort.
Though certainly in different proportions, I think courtesans exist in every country.
I feel like them and a lot of other people are also underestimating the amount of sex trafficed victims that are forced into it here in the west.
I agree with you. I also want you to know that I love the expression “you deserve to be thrown into the pit.” What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
I think it’s in reference to the mass graves Tito threw dead nazi soldiers in
where, which sex workers, and which services? i think men who spend more money on onlyfans than they do on groceries are dumb, i think strip clubs are fucken weird, i think sex tourists probably deserve death, and i think most johns are walking into a minefield of exploitation.
