Researchers drove a NIO ES8 electric SUV deep into a Norwegian underground mine specifically to sever its external connections. The car kept attempting to reach servers, most of them located in China. These findings echo broader concerns about hidden data collection, similar to how a surveillance app was built to covertly target users without their knowledge.
That finding sits at the center of Project Lion Cage, a multi-year study initiated in 2022 by Tor Indstøy, a risk management and threat intelligence executive at Telenor Group. Indstøy purchased the NIO ES8 as a dedicated research platform.
The project arrives as Chinese EV brands expand across European markets with assurances about local data processing. Observed network behavior appears to contradict those assurances.
A more honest researcher would say “bought any vehicle from x country and it kept trying to contact servers in x country even after driving it into a mine”. They lose credibility when they try to insinuate that this only happens with EVs and only with China made vehicles.
I have no idea what the point is of driving it into a mine? Of course the client will keep trying to reconnect to the server, that’s how software usually works…
The car kept attempting to reach servers, most of them located in China
Now try the same experiment with cars from other countries.
And then let’s hear from someone who can tell the world how to disable this anti-feature without breaking the car that we bought and paid for.
Why on Earth wouldn’t it keep trying? That’s how signals work. If my router goes down my computer is going to keep trying to connect to it even though it’s off. That’s not fucking news.
Yeah, I had the same thought when reading this
What a weird article
My assumption would be that they drove the car into the mine to see what would (or wouldn’t) work if the vehicle was cut off from the mothership. My hunch is they didn’t really find anything of interest so this is what gets reported.
Also all us cars do the same thing and I would much rather have my data in China than the US.
Thank you!!!
If I’m reading correctly, they specifically tried to stop it from doing so and even in what is essentially a faraday cage it keeps trying to link with Beijing to spill the tea, not exactly what you want if you “own” a product
Yeah, and that’s how connections work.
It doesn’t specify in the article if they toggled the WiFi switch off in the OS, one would assume they did before driving it into a mountain.
If so, not cool to keep calling home. If not, PEBKAC error
You really think a car tries to “call home” using WiFi?
Somebody smarter than I will definitely delve into the guts of incoming Chinese EVs and figure out what part(s) to strip to stop this…
And if you’re in America and you have an EV, it’s statistically likely to be a Tesla. Tesla has starlink compatibility baked into their cars too and you’d better believe that sweet juicy data is being shared around.
If I was stuck with a Tesla against my will, I’d at least try the same thing for it, too.
My BMW checking if my bmw subscription is active when I’m trying to enable seat heater
I wonder what the security is like. I’d love to know how difficult it would be to set up a mock-service to just tell it you have everything.
You’d expect there to be encryption and some kind of certificate validation to check the response is trustworthy, but given what we now know about the CAN bus that many cars use, and how vulnerable it is to attack, it suggests the motor industry is way behind the times in terms of security.
Fbi wants to know your location
It would just be easier to wire it directly to a switch.
Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s not like a transistor in a microchip or something; it’s a wire you can work with.
I bet BMW makes the disassembly needed an absolute pain, though.
The car kept attempting to reach servers
To the surprise of whom?
ANY device that relies on radio signal communication for any of its functionality, taken anywhere (underground mine, parking garage, Antarctica, Santa’s workshop, etc), and it’ll try to maintain it’s connections. That’s just what they do.
It would be extremely noteworthy if it stopped once it was out of range, because how would it know?
Okay, but China Bad
Step 1: make a PiHole
Step 2: examine every thing the PiHole blocks from calling home
Step 3: research small holdings
Step 4: throw it all out and go farm Llamas
Seriously, I own a Firestick as a jellyfin client. It’s network access is limited to local only. Anyway, here’s one entry from that Firestick on one PiHole:
global.telemetry.insights.video.a2z.com 42590Number is the number of times my PiHole has smacked it down. One entry, from one stick, to one PiHole (I have a redundant one too).
My Chev calls the US!
Ah, because neither Google nor Apple track their users and would never, ever share said data with US (or other) agencies… right? RIGHT?
Sure. Don’t worry about this bad behavior, because others engage in it, and it’s not like anyone calls out US tech privacy issues. I struggle to imagine someone naturally reacting this way. Are you for real?
I agree it is something we should worry about and pay attention too, but just because something occurs doesn’t mean it was nefarious on purpose. Apple is better than many, but let’s say you have an iPhone. The iPhone is constantly reaching out and reporting it’s location to the findmy app that is only accessible by the users. If that phone is in a cave performing this test, it will be reaching out continuously similar to this car. Apple doesn’t sell that data, but where it becomes a breach of privacy is that if a judge gives a warrant, Apple has to turn it over. (So suddenly it isn’t only accessible to the user meaning verification is NORMALLY required to allow Apple to access the data, but they could bypass said verification.
So does that mean no one should ever enable find my on their devices… Maybe, but people weigh it against whatever they find useful about it.
I’d like to not be spied on. But if forced to choose, I would rather be spied on by a foreign goverment than a domestic one.
Why not both? You’re only choosing your data broker.
Why? At least with a domestic government you can vote and lobby for data controls. GDPR, etc.
I have Chinese manufactured IP cameras. they do not connect to the internet. yet, they still attempt to connect to Chinese servers at least once a minute.
this has been going on for at least 15 years.
I have an Chinese manufactured American developed phone. It connects to an American server frequently.
difference is, China has been caught multiple times creating backdoors into their hardware through software.
I guess that means America is just better at foreign espionage than China 🤣
they do not connect to the internet. yet, they still attempt to connect to Chinese servers
Via?
Can’t this be solved with legislation? I mean, all they have to do is say “no vehicles may be sold within our borders if they attempt to communicate with any servers.” Vehicles never did this 15 years ago and it’s insane they operate like massive phones with wheels now.
that would be the only sensible approach, but we all know it will never happen
China isn’t the only one
Chinese ev bus behaves like every John Deere tractor, Tesla, amazon ring doorbell, windows pc, mac, smart tv, iphone and android device , and probably every other car made since 2020.
“But China bad” is getting pretty old and frail in comparison to the domestic and international predations and privacy invasions of US tech businesses and government
“But China bad” is getting pretty old and frail in comparison to the domestic and international predations and privacy invasions of US tech businesses and government
ah, the “DON’T CRITICIZE CHINA” is getting even fucking older and frailer in comparison.
Especially when it says right in the article that its doing the exact opposite of what was promised.
Which, if any other countries product was doing that, you’d have a fit over it and not be sitting there going having a big whinge fest about the unfair persecution.
DON’T CRITICIZE CHINA
We put a machine with a radio in a room and the radio continued to try and function.
This is why we cannot import low priced, high quality foreign made electric engines.
if any other countries product was doing that, you’d have a fit
Why? It’s the same tired story, used to scare people who know nothing about communications technology. It’s all about making “Buy American” a national security issue.
If Brazil or Italy or even the dreaded Russia was being accused of this, why wouldn’t we stare sideways?
its doing the exact opposite of what was promised
I mean, remind me again why I’m trusting autos.yahoo.com on their reporting? Isn’t Yahoo a subsidiary of Apollo Global Management, a company with deep ties to the Epstein human trafficking cartel?
Yeah I’d be more interested in what it’s sending. Go into a mine with your smartphone (or just an LG TV) and it’ll be continually reaching out as well… but WHAT it’s trying to receive or transmit is important.
We put a machine with a radio in a room and the radio continued to try and function.
This is why we cannot import low priced, high quality foreign made electric engines.
In a way that they promised it wouldnt.
Which is kind of the important thing all you tankies seem to be willfully overlooking.
Why? It’s the same tired story, used to scare people who know nothing about communications technology. It’s all about making “Buy American” a national security issue.
If Brazil or Italy or even the dreaded Russia was being accused of this, why wouldn’t we stare sideways?
If anyone else was promising device would do X, and did Y instead, it would also be a cause for concern. Regardless of who did it.
If it was brazil, or Italy, you wouldnt be having this same tantrum over calling them out, as you are over calling out Dear China.
I mean, remind me again why I’m trusting autos.yahoo.com on their reporting? Isn’t Yahoo a subsidiary of Apollo Global Management, a company with deep ties to the Epstein human trafficking cartel?
he says, while having a tantrum over no one taking china, a notorious angel state that totally doesnt do horrific shit, at its word of being a good boy.
having a tantrum
Is reminding you of the questionable history of Apollo Global a tantrum?
No,thats just a poor attempt to shift the narrative away from your tantruming and away from China so you can shut down critical discussion.
It’s all about making “Buy American” a national security issue.
It absolutely is a national security issue!
It’s not exclusive to the US, either. It’s even worse when you use American digital services outside the US. I live in Europe and it is especially bad because we have very strong privacy laws and require companies which offer digital services to have their servers in Europe.
It absolutely is a national security issue!
Tell it to Volkswagen
Never said they were doung the right thing, just pointing out that if the behaviour warrants complaint, then complaint shoud be levied agaisnt everyone behaving that way.
But hey, you keep on with your black and white opinions.
Yes, exactly.
And theres been extensive coverage of western cars spying and doing nasty stuff.
But we get a news story about Chinese cars, who promised local data processing, still trying to connect back to chinese servers, and suddenly the tankie hands start wringing about people being so mean to poor poor china.
because we can be big mean to western states, but we can’t be factual about poor poor china. thats just racist.
Your arguments would carry more weight and might even be worth debating if you could make them objectively without attempts at petty insults, and pretentions of victimhood. As it stands, you’re just kinda predictable and boring. Moving on…
I’m a lot more worried about what domestic companies are doing with my data than Chinese ones.
A couple things, you are absolutely correct about the hypocrisy. All modern major manufacturers are doing the same thing. Calling out China without mentioning this is definitely a disservice.
On the invasion of privacy through spying, China is undoubtedly the worst followed by the US and Russia.
When it comes international predations I think you are correct. The US is the worst. Russia next then Israel and China. France and Germany probably fit in here somewhere as well with the selling of arms around the world.
China is undoubtedly the worst followed by the US and Russia.
I doubt it. Russia doesn’t have the infrastructure or the manpower to compete with a modern surveillance state. And the US doesn’t operate alone, it’s part of the Five Eyes network, including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. Nevermind NISRF.
Part of what makes the US network horrifying is how many other countries are blithely along for the ride.
What they lack in technology they make up for in brutality. Also, they aren’t that far behind building out their dystopian surveillance state.
https://therecord.media/russia-upgrades-rules-for-digital-spy-system-sorm
What they lack in technology they make up for in brutality.
That’s how surveillance works
Your ranking is missing the top spot. Here is the revised list
- US corporations
- Chinese government
- US government …
I think the damage US corporations have done is truly unparalleled. When it comes to big tech China still pales in comparison in the Western world. That is until you consider Tik Tok, which is the most influential of social media for the under 30 market. Is Tik Tok really a bad influence or better or worse than something like Facebook is very debatable as well.
That is until you consider Tik Tok
Wasn’t the big concern with TikTok entirely around how people were talking about the Palestine Genocide while US controlled social media had effectively blacked it out?
Lol probably, Tik Tok is also a lot different for the American audience. Things that would never be allowed in China, especially for young adults, are permitted in the US. Of course you could argue they are just doing what US companies do in the free for all that is social media.
I would argue that Tiktok would not have such an outsized effect if US corporations had not turned people into wage slaves.
I’m sorry but there’s no way china is worse that the US’s big tech.
It is a matter of opinion of course, but the amount of surveillance, firewalls, and censorship combined with the fact that it is mostly state sponsored really puts China in its own category.
Certainly the US has caused much more overall harm on a global scale though.
They are, but only if you’re using their products and live there. China has a bigger hold on China.
USA has a bigger hold globally, but spying to a slightly lesser degree.
USA wants to catch up to China on the local level though, and are definitely trying hard. But they didn’t set up the camera infrastructure in time.
A couple things, you are absolutely correct about the hypocrisy. All modern major manufacturers are doing the same thing.
and theres been tons of coverage about that, and how it can be used against you.
To pretend theres radio silence on it, and this is all just being big mean to china is the real hypocrisy.
Yeah, I was just going to say, I honestly don’t really care if the Chinese government knows where my car is.
the classic “Why should I care about my privacy, I’m not doing anything wrong” attitude.
No. The Chinese government has no power over me. It has nothing to do with "doing anything wrong, "
I couldn’t care less if the Chinese government sees my car “doing something wrong” (whatever the fuck that even means in this context. Parking somewhere I’m not supposed to?). I’m not Chinese and have never been to China.
I’ll worry more about my own government’s very real creation of a dystopic surveillance state right here at home.
Have you ever heard about selling things, or data being leaked?
At this point, with literally every single company out there selling everything from my IP, to my toenail size to the lowest bidder, is there really anything left to sell?
I’m not saying we shouldn’t fight for privacy, I’m saying for all practical purposes, we’ve already lost the fight. That’s not a reason to not keep trying though.
But his perfect, wonderful china would never do that! Its only the vile, evil, western countries that do such vile evil things!
Yeah dude that’s exactly what I said. Well done.
Assuming you are in a western nation, There is a degree of legitimacy to be taken with the fact that China are far less capable of weaponising that data against you personally, than the US
What about other things, like remotely stopping your car from operating?
To what end?
With all our formidable intelligence and NSA capability and massive massive funding, no one can tell whats in those communications after all this time huh. We even have physcial access to the devices and we still cant figure it out. Next time we are told the government needs to remove citizens constitional rights to privacy or needs us to use insecure encryption keys, we should all question what the hell for. And next time I hear “Israel helps us with our intelligence” I want to hear what they came up with in understyanding what chinese devices are sending home, or they can shut the hell up. So far all we seem capable of is spying on our own citizens, IF we all use insecure communications and allow our every movement in public to be videoed. I am not impressed.
or needs us to use insecure encryption keys
look up QWAC
