And remember that they got rid of your third spaces so you couldn’t discuss any of it (and made common affordable gathering options like concerts and sporting events out of reach for the same reason). Threw you into algorithms so you felt like you were only preaching to the choir or conversely that nobody held your same opinions/aspirations for something more - either way a formula for you to get exhausted and give up.
And you do feel exhausted.
This really bothered me when I visited the USA (East coast). In retrospect I feel like I had the right to the highway, as long as I was driving. But no town square with a bench where I could just sit, no park where I could lean against a tree, no parcel of nature where I could just go for a walk. Cafés and restaurants were expensive and uncomfortable, clearly designed to push you out once the nominal transaction was complete. No wonder people eat in their car, alone.
I’m sure I missed a lot of good places during my visit, but I felt like the pattern was very quite obvious. Highway, Walmart, highway, Walmart, highway, Walmart. The forests aren’t wild parts of nature, they’re closed-off as-yet undeveloped land, awaiting their appointment with the axe. The town centers now have fewer options to linger than a classic mall. The suburbs are endless rows of freestanding houses, with no padding - no library, no shop, no playground, no outdoor gym, no football field. Maybe some pro-social resident set up a box for exchanging books between neighbors. That’s it.
Not saying the rest of the world is perfect by any means. But in Sweden where I live, I feel like the I’m seeing positive changes over time, with new third spaces being added every year. In my town the city center is now car-free during summer time to make space for outdoor furniture, and the nearby cafés and bars thrive. They’re adding grills for cooking to parks, making nature trails more accessible, and peppering the place with playgrounds and outdoor gyms. There’s a long way to go to perfect but at least it’s moving in the right direction.
algorithms that have devolved into echo chambers and amazon recommendations. yeah and anyone who creates is a third space is usually labelled an evil person or a conspiracy theorist and put on an FBI watch list. now they have, “an aging problem,” at concerts, clubs and events because no one can afford them except for those in their late 40’s early 60’s, 2012 was the last affordable year for any of those things(, that’s conservative it’s more like 2014.) you’re never preaching to the choir because there’s a bunch of hive minds and if you’re not adhering to them, you’re the odd man out so having an opinion doesn’t even fucking matter anymore.
just like this, this doesn’t matter, right now what i am typing doesn’t mean jack shit but at least you can put it out there. you can put your opinion and your voice out there. I guess that matters more than anything
Absolutely. But also remember that the concept of Third Places coined by Oldenburg focused on the wrong thing. A lot of the examples of “welcoming and leveling” places were actually pretty deeply exlusionary, which makes a lot of the Third Place rhetoric a white, male, heteronormative fantasy.
And importantly, it’s starting from a contradictory place to build a theory of pure civic community around spaces that rely on capital. A business’s primary goal is profit. The moment a patron stops spending money or takes up a table for too long, the illusion of “neutral civic ground” dissolves. By focusing on establishments (where the primary activity is conversation and consumer lingering), his theory ignores the Commons, the true public infrastructure like plazas, parks, and sidewalks. The argument can be made that instead of trying to revive Oldenburg’s nostalgic storefronts, society should focus on the “right to the city” in the shared public ownership of physical space where citizens don’t need a consumer identity to exist.
Very true and a welcome point of view.
I can say that practically, growing up very low income, we (small sample of course) could exist for hours, months and years in these places without spending a dollar and without being harassed - and that was with a pretty diverse group (by race, gender, neon hair color and pierced bodies/clothing), but this was in a more predominately progressive, middle class community (bordering wealthy areas) to be fair. And importantly we did always exist in the shadow of it, regardless of spend, and that has to have an effect on some.
I can say that the behavior continued in a form as an adult when I would work from a certain coffee chain using angles with their loyalty program to buy a single coffee for under $2 and work the whole day, consuming maybe $50 retail while working in a more comfortable environment than I could afford otherwise, with connectivity, air conditioning and power.
So by no means ideal, but with today’s desert of connection as an alternative, I think myself and others were able to learn, connect and grow in these spaces, within very limited means, and I can pretty confidently say without suffering impacts of indoctrination or desire to rejoin these places as an adult, as a “fully productive” and participatory member of society.
So my hope would be that people still had those imperfect spaces (of course supplementing the truly free community supported options you mention) for those lessons they did offer, the community one could build and the perspective gained by close proximity to the problems within these spaces (learning what not to do, seeing that the person who carried 4 bags from different stores still didn’t look happy. It didn’t “fix” her)
Thanks for taking the time to reply with your perspective, I’ve had a similar experience.
Old but still relavent.“But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed. It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got. Because the owners, the owners of this country don’t want that. I’m talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests. Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that! You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fucking place! It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich cock suckers who don’t give a fuck about you….they don’t give a fuck about you… they don’t give a FUCK about you. They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it. George Carlin
I got about 2 sentences into that and knew it was the honorable George Carlin.
It worked, people are so dumb
We should invest in whatever they hate the most. Obviously they don’t hate hurting others or being selfish, so whatever they hate probably doesn’t have those things and are safe for us.
Ultimately, maga’s unhealthiness is they refuse to adapt to reality, whether that’s climate science, economic data, or global best practices. Their policies actively make life worse for most Americans while enriching a tiny elite. The tragedy is that many of their own voters would benefit from the very systems they oppose, but corporate propaganda, tribalism and proudly choose to stay in dualism, keep them voting against their own interests repeatedly. Until that changes, the US will continue to lag behind nations that prioritize people over profits. Real truth sets us free!
The billionaire class aren’t “MAGA” (they manipulate MAGA and Greens for that matter)
This tiny elite that makes life worst for most Americans is Democrat and Republican (and UK royal family, etc.)
Real truth does set us free! It ain’t “MAGA”, they’re as powerless as you are; it’s “EPSTEIN FILES”.
also co-opting anti-vaxxing too.
wasted effort
all i want is the removal of all income taxes and do land value taxes the taxes have to come from those at the top that own everything 5000 sqft exemption and the ones using properties as rent they can go bankrupt i dont care use it or lose it. no one cares.
production lower inflation else you deserve bankruptcy.
Ok
This is the second time this exact meme has been posted to this sub, so I suppose this is the second time I have to say this.
Socialism does not inherently guarantee collective worker protections, nor was socialism itself designed specifically to provide them.
At its most basic level, socialism is an economic and political framework centered on social or public ownership and control of the means of production. Worker protections, labor rights, workplace safety regulations, unions, minimum wages, and social welfare programs are separate policy choices. They can exist under socialist, capitalist, and mixed economic systems.
More importantly, there is very little historical basis for claiming that socialism, simply by virtue of being socialism, guarantees the protections this meme is describing. In fact, many governments that have implemented socialist economic systems have had extensive records of suppressing independent labor organizations, restricting worker autonomy, and disregarding individual civil and political rights.
You can argue for those protections. You can argue for socialism. But conflating the two doesn’t make the historical or economic argument any stronger.
Depends who you read, Marx, Lenin? Rosa Luxemburg? Robert Owen? Anton Pannekoek?
I think the word definition socialism depends on your country’s current and past local proponents.
deleted by creator
The fight isn’t left vs right, it’s down vs up. That’s what they spent their money on, making sure we lowbies keep on fighting against each other. None of it works, except to make sure powerful people remain powerful and rich.
It never was right vs left, it never was generational. That’s just what everyone has been duped into arguing over. And they love it. Because while people under 40 are bitching about all their problems being because caused by anyone over the age of 70, those ultra wealthy kid-fuckers and laughing their asses off funneling more tax dollars into their bank accounts
Those who want to act against the rich and powerful are called, “the left.”
How? By funneling taxes to a central authority and empowering them? Because we’re not empowering society by doing that. We’re actually empowering just a small group, who gets all the agency to make decisions on behalf of everybody and, most likely, on behalf of themselves mostly. An actually fair society needs to be governed in a decentralized manner. On the far left, we’ve got communism, and we all know how that went, and on the far right we’ve got fascism, and we definitely know how that went.
I maintain my original hypothesis that “the left” and “the right” are simply constructs designed to keep up fighting among ourselves, where we mostly disagree with each other in a tribalist way, as opposed to actually discussing and thinking about the problems, and trying to come up with solutions. To me, it’s plain simple that we need both mindsets combined to be able to actually fight the rich and the powerful.
But that’s it from me on politics this week. As a problem solver, I have less and less interest on this pointless topic.
That is an anarchist position, anarchism is a strain of leftist thought.
To me, it’s plain simple that we need both mindsets combined to be able to actually fight the rich and the powerful.
We need right-wing thought to fight the rich and powerful? What part? Cutting taxes on the rich? Starting wars of aggression? Kicking down doors and rounding up immigrants?
The right is completely wrong, has no insight on anything, mostly on account of being completely anti-intellectual. All of their policies are about reinforcing existing heirarchies, strengthening the rich and weakening the poor. Opposing those policies is not “tribalism.” I challenge you to name one right-wing position with any merit.
As a problem solver, I have less and less interest on this pointless topic.
Pointless topics! So you don’t actually care about fighting the rich at all.
That is an anarchist position, anarchism is a strain of leftist thought.
Well, there’s also anarcho-capitalism, or minarchism. But what’s happening right here with this discussion is exactly my point. There’s a senseless drive to put individuals into these tiny bubbles of left or right, and this solves nothing.
We need right-wing thought to fight the rich and powerful? What part? Cutting taxes on the rich? Starting wars of aggression? Kicking down doors and rounding up immigrants?
Nah, couldn’t care less for those guys. It’s freakin’ insanity what’s happening right now in the world. What I’m saying is that taxes merely shift the control elsewhere. If you have to tax, those are the guys to be taxed. My problem with taxes is that it accomplishes nothing really. This general position against “the rich” is also slightly biased, but completely understandable given the current events. Dude, I am absolutely disgusted by the stuff those guys are doing! It’s mind blowing to me the level of insanity we have reached. Now, are you going to ask the government to help you out, when they are essentially the enemy? I don’t get it. Also, are we gonna add to the chaos and make it worse, or are we actually gonna shift out of a destructive mindset and try to clearly identify problems and find solutions? It’s just that revenge taxing the rich will essentially accomplish nothing beyond satisfying the egos of a few people.
Pointless topics! So you don’t actually care about fighting the rich at all.
I don’t, not directly. I care about addressing the real problems, the core issues. For example, the fact that the rich and the powerful seem to be above the law. This is why I believe the decentralization of power is a fundamental mechanism in the fight against corruption. A central body of power will always be corrupt.
Well, there’s also anarcho-capitalism, or minarchism
“Anarcho”-capitalism isn’t so much anarchism as it is a rebranding of feudalism. Anarchism is opposed to heirarchies, so it’s incompatible with capitalism. Minarchism is an unrealistic, idealist ideology. Whichever class wields power over the state is going to use the state to advance their interests.
This general position against “the rich” is also slightly biased, but completely understandable given the current events.
It’s just that revenge taxing the rich will essentially accomplish nothing beyond satisfying the egos of a few people.
It’s not biased, and it’s not “revenge.” The rich are a class, which is engaged in class warfare against the poor. Weakening them would be worthwhile even if we didn’t get a direct benefit from it, because the fewer resources they have the less ability they have to impose worse conditions, and the more resources they have the more aggressive they can be.
Now, are you going to ask the government to help you out, when they are essentially the enemy?
An anarchist might oppose taxing taxing the rich for that reason.
I would argue that the government is merely a tool, that can be used by different classes for different purposes. It is not the primary enemy, which is the rich, but the tool is often used by the rich to advance their interests. Imposing taxes on the rich would be an example of the working class wielding the tool of the government against the rich.
I care about addressing the real problems, the core issues. For example, the fact that the rich and the powerful seem to be above the law.
That’s what you just called a “pointless issue,” isn’t it? When we discuss politics, aren’t we discussing strategies for addressing the power of the rich? Is it pointless to discuss those strategies?
It is, unfortunately, pointless, as the vast majority of people don’t even bother to lift a finger to click ‘like’ on a post that’s fighting for something they also care about. I’ve often been ‘man yelling at cloud’ trying to fight mass surveillance and privacy issues alone. There’s a niche, of course, but, mostly, people are either afraid or don’t care enough, so yeah, it feels pointless.
Also, let me take note that we have discussed the political spectrum and the worthiness of discussing politics, but we haven’t really discussed anything worth discussing. Not that I didn’t enjoy it, but this doesn’t change my point of view. If anything, it consolidates it.
Things are only as bad as the people let them become. We voted ourselves out of democracy, so the people are really to blame. The way I see it, I won’t be ‘man yelling at cloud’ anymore, and the less people stand up and shout, the bigger the penalty will be. It’s unfortunate, but also self-serving.
Grow your own food. Share what you can’t use.
Connect with your neighbours. Offer to help with anything you’re good at. Share tools with them.
Hyper individualism is capitalism’s best friend. You can’t borrow a chainsaw from someone you don’t know. You have to buy zucchini from the store because you don’t know anyone with a garden. You have to pay a plumber for a simple leak instead of someone you know being able to help. And so on.
The powers that be will shit themselves if we all start cooperating instead of fighting. Why do you think they stoke the anti-trans flames so hard? Why make up that they’re eating the dogs and eating the cats?
They don’t want us getting along. That’s bad for business. You can do your part to fuck them up simply by remembering how to be a real human. Not a consumer.
Grow your own food. Share what you can’t use
I started a jalapeño pepper plant two years ago that’s been popping out peppers like crazy. I hate peppers, so I give them to anyone who wants them around town.
I do not share tools though, they never seem to come back. If you need a tool or something I have, as long as you don’t mind a furry foul mouthed Canadian I’ll gladly come help though and bring them along.
You heard it here first kids, plumbers exist because of capitalism.
That’s an embarrassingly stupid thing to say.
I know!
For-profit plumbing businesses, yeah.
I know you’re trying to be snarky or whatever.
most of all - ignore the last 100 years of socialist history detailing what a useless, inhumane disaster it’s always been
Who is talking about socialism? Are you OK?
I don’t hate socialism. I hate socializing.
Same. Let me pay taxes and enjoy quality public services, but don’t make me talk to the neighbors.
We need more Luigis
** Luigi intensifies **
The Epstein class must held to account for the rat fuckery they’re doing
If only they stuck with rats
Amongst each other, the billionaires are the biggest socialists of all. They are simply greedy and do not want to share their ill-gotten gains. “C’mon poors! Fight each other for my pleasure and profit!”.
