Aggregate public opinion, both the real, and especially through bullshit polls during authoritarian (read: dangerous) times, is at the whims of the government.
If the government bombards people with an idea, people without a robust opinion, will believe it.
Hate the people who act. The government, and the part of the public that is taking real Zionist action, participating in the ideology.
As I said in the other comment, the idea of “Israelis” is not real enough to justify hating the group. Putting all of them in the same basket is racism, because many of them (perhaps 20%, doesn’t change my argument), have neither the desire nor the power to contribute to the genocide, and part of those is fighting against.
Name the groups you hate by their real characteristic (violent fascists), because hating “people of a nation” is just being racist, and missing what the actual danger is.
My point is the ratio is so skewed that you can effectively ignore the minority as inconsequential.
I am not advocating punishing all isrealis indiscriminately based on the actions of the majority. I am just saying that Israelis are far right and I don’t see a lot of value in adding any caveats after such a general statement.
The mental gymnastics necessary to say this in a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for their activism related to exposing the genocide is absolutely wild. Much less to call it inconsequential.
They’re also being threatened with having their citizenship revoked, because not being far right is considered incompatiable with being isreali by the isrealis.
You are demanding an asterisk and foot notes to my joke comment about the pervasiveness of far right beliefs shared by the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens where I acknowledge the obvious: not 100% of the people share these beliefs. Yeah, no duh - that genuinely goes without saying, it’s true for literally every generalization.
The level of accuracy you are requesting is (and I don’t mean this as an insult) autistic. There are unspoken elements involved in human interaction and the acceptance that a generalization does not apply 100% is something I should be able to take for granted in a Lemmy comment.
I’m not quibbling over the definition of “plenty” (a word I did not say) when people are arguing that being born in Israel makes you far right, on a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for exposing the genocide to an international audience. Do we really need to have a ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion?
You are arguing against someone who said 80% of Israelis want to go further, in response to someone saying “plenty” of Israelis weren’t right wing. You trying to strip out the context and simplify things to “individual Israelis might be ok” is pointless blathering in a more focused conversation that is less “where you are born” and more “are you in favour of ethnic cleansing”.
Maybe not pointless. Quite useful to a certain viewpoint.
pointless blathering in a more focused conversation that is less “where you are born” and more “are you in favour of ethnic cleansing”.
So that’s a yes, we do need to have the ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion? Because ‘Israeli’ is a nationality, not a political ideology. You are describing a political ideology while ascribing it to everyone born there–which includes people who are ethnically Palestinian–on a post about two Israelis doing more for Palestinians than everyone in this thread put together. You seriously don’t see the ridiculousness in that?
You’ve completely ignored the content of my post, please understand I’m not ignoring yours, I’m asking you to re-read it: we are speaking about statistics (only 1 in 5 opposing genocide is not "plenty). You didn’t say “plenty” but you are very poorly defending someone who did - and you are appealing to individuality in a conversation that has nothing to do with individuals . You might as well argue about the existence of free will in a discussion of an election.
The government is fascistic. The people in the government, and those who support it, are fascists. “Society”, means all the people together, just like in the above comment, “Israelis” are all the citizens.
“All the citizens of a place” is not a group you can just bunch up, that’s just racism.
There isn’t actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism in this case), or money (rich people and their suck ups), or real societal role (cops, military).
Those things are real. “Nationality” (one step removed from “race”) is not real. Don’t fall for the intellectual trap, that any of that matters as to which people are “good” or "bad
To be an Israeli “citizen” is (obviously I’m not speaking of children) to knowingly live on occupied land built on destroyed villages because the society believes you are superior to the natives you hold on literal ghettos and concentration camps while slowly exterminating them.
If you’re not opposed to what your “fascist government” is doing, being a citizen doesn’t absolve you. The government as a concept is not responsible, it’s people that enable it.
The German society was correctly blamed for Nazism, not just Adolf and friends. Israeli society would need to a similar dezionification.
The majority of them agree with the government, the majority of people protesting Netanyahu are upset he didn’t do enough. It’s a supremacist society of child killers, they set up camping chairs and eat popcorn while watching bombs fall on children, they spit on us and attack non Jews openly, and their military defends them from consequences. It’s a society that needs fixing, not just a government.
There isn’t actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Actually, and I can’t believe my fucking eyes and having to write this… In this case, that is literally not the thing connecting them. The majority of Israeli citizens are not born in Palestine, the majority hold at least one other citizenship and what connects them is their belief that their ethno-religious group was promised the land of Palestine and they must subjugate the natives and take it from them.
They are racist. To be a Zionist is racist. To exist and partake of a society built on killing and stealing from Palestinians is racist. Pointing it out is not.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism…
Oh you’re doing the technically correct thing, even though you brought up citizens and I spoke only of society.
Israeli society, by definition, are Zionists. That is what I’m bunching them up with, and you’re twisting what I said to call me racist against Zionists.
I repeat what I said, it’s a sick supremacist society. I never brought up nationality and your attempt to argue that society means nationality is idiotic.
For the record, you’re right after all, I was assuming things about Israel (that it’s a country with more than one generation of people having lived there lol) that are apparently untrue.
What you said about them all having more than one citizenship, is really interesting and telling of the reality there.
This is the comment of the interaction I realized how that place just isn’t a normal country.
Society being roughly the same thing with nationality, is just the truth of other, poorer places. The privilege to “be able to leave”, is not universal, and also currently under attack btw, which is why I was wrongly trying to extend grace to such people over there.
Israel is a fake country though, apparently (not snark, I mean it word for word), and I was extending grace to a 100 year-old settler-colonial rich-guy sadism-retreat.
You are a good person who took criticism that contained anger and looked it up instead of blindly repeating what you’ve previously heard just to win an argument. I was not the most graceful, but you considered what I’m saying instead of how I said it.
I’ve tagged you as an actual ally. I hope we can fight for a better future together.
Those more extreme than Netanyahu are at least still a minority, albeit empowered by their position in the coalition. The majority of the protests against Netanyahu come from the same kind of centrists as the Americans you saw protesting Trump in 2017, who objected to the fascist boomerang coming around to hit them but wouldn’t have raised nearly as much of a fuss about deportations and overseas assassination campaigns if Hillary Clinton had been the one behind them.
I think it’s all too easy to imagine a mass of undifferentiated monsters rather than confronting the connection between unfortunately familiar patterns of political engagement and the slaughter they cause, just because that connection is more obvious closer to the blade of the imperialist knife. Plenty of militaristic genocide deniers are just as much liberal progressives as their counterparts in western countries until the switch flips back to their military brainwashing and they start talking about security guarantees and buffer zones.
Maybe I’m naive for believing that people can change, but I don’t think that everyone who’s been sold on the lie that forever war is the only way for them to be safe is as committed to violence as the backyard terrorists with lawn chairs.
“Far-right isrealis”
But you repeat yourself
Nah, there’s plenty Israelis fighting for Palestine, and against their government. If it was “far-right Zionists”, then I’d agree
I think something like 80% of the Israeli public thinks they’re not going hard enough in Gaza
You need to consider who made that study, who they interviewed for it and why.
Aggregate public opinion, both the real, and especially through bullshit polls during authoritarian (read: dangerous) times, is at the whims of the government.
If the government bombards people with an idea, people without a robust opinion, will believe it.
Hate the people who act. The government, and the part of the public that is taking real Zionist action, participating in the ideology.
As I said in the other comment, the idea of “Israelis” is not real enough to justify hating the group. Putting all of them in the same basket is racism, because many of them (perhaps 20%, doesn’t change my argument), have neither the desire nor the power to contribute to the genocide, and part of those is fighting against.
Name the groups you hate by their real characteristic (violent fascists), because hating “people of a nation” is just being racist, and missing what the actual danger is.
Assuming those numbers are correct, 1 in 5 Israelis aren’t real?
If we were talking about the GOP would I need to make caveats for the small percentage of them who don’t support Donald Trump?
I wasn’t aware you could be born as a member of the GOP 🤨
My point is the ratio is so skewed that you can effectively ignore the minority as inconsequential.
I am not advocating punishing all isrealis indiscriminately based on the actions of the majority. I am just saying that Israelis are far right and I don’t see a lot of value in adding any caveats after such a general statement.
The mental gymnastics necessary to say this in a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for their activism related to exposing the genocide is absolutely wild. Much less to call it inconsequential.
They’re also being threatened with having their citizenship revoked, because not being far right is considered incompatiable with being isreali by the isrealis.
You are demanding an asterisk and foot notes to my joke comment about the pervasiveness of far right beliefs shared by the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens where I acknowledge the obvious: not 100% of the people share these beliefs. Yeah, no duh - that genuinely goes without saying, it’s true for literally every generalization.
The level of accuracy you are requesting is (and I don’t mean this as an insult) autistic. There are unspoken elements involved in human interaction and the acceptance that a generalization does not apply 100% is something I should be able to take for granted in a Lemmy comment.
You think 1 in 5 people not in favour of finishing the genocide is “plenty”?
I’m not quibbling over the definition of “plenty” (a word I did not say) when people are arguing that being born in Israel makes you far right, on a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for exposing the genocide to an international audience. Do we really need to have a ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion?
You are arguing against someone who said 80% of Israelis want to go further, in response to someone saying “plenty” of Israelis weren’t right wing. You trying to strip out the context and simplify things to “individual Israelis might be ok” is pointless blathering in a more focused conversation that is less “where you are born” and more “are you in favour of ethnic cleansing”.
Maybe not pointless. Quite useful to a certain viewpoint.
So that’s a yes, we do need to have the ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion? Because ‘Israeli’ is a nationality, not a political ideology. You are describing a political ideology while ascribing it to everyone born there–which includes people who are ethnically Palestinian–on a post about two Israelis doing more for Palestinians than everyone in this thread put together. You seriously don’t see the ridiculousness in that?
Ugh.
You’ve completely ignored the content of my post, please understand I’m not ignoring yours, I’m asking you to re-read it: we are speaking about statistics (only 1 in 5 opposing genocide is not "plenty). You didn’t say “plenty” but you are very poorly defending someone who did - and you are appealing to individuality in a conversation that has nothing to do with individuals . You might as well argue about the existence of free will in a discussion of an election.
There’s not plenty, there’s few. It’s a sick supremacist society.
The government is fascistic. The people in the government, and those who support it, are fascists. “Society”, means all the people together, just like in the above comment, “Israelis” are all the citizens.
“All the citizens of a place” is not a group you can just bunch up, that’s just racism.
There isn’t actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism in this case), or money (rich people and their suck ups), or real societal role (cops, military).
Those things are real. “Nationality” (one step removed from “race”) is not real. Don’t fall for the intellectual trap, that any of that matters as to which people are “good” or "bad
To be an Israeli “citizen” is (obviously I’m not speaking of children) to knowingly live on occupied land built on destroyed villages because the society believes you are superior to the natives you hold on literal ghettos and concentration camps while slowly exterminating them.
If you’re not opposed to what your “fascist government” is doing, being a citizen doesn’t absolve you. The government as a concept is not responsible, it’s people that enable it.
The German society was correctly blamed for Nazism, not just Adolf and friends. Israeli society would need to a similar dezionification.
The majority of them agree with the government, the majority of people protesting Netanyahu are upset he didn’t do enough. It’s a supremacist society of child killers, they set up camping chairs and eat popcorn while watching bombs fall on children, they spit on us and attack non Jews openly, and their military defends them from consequences. It’s a society that needs fixing, not just a government.
Actually, and I can’t believe my fucking eyes and having to write this… In this case, that is literally not the thing connecting them. The majority of Israeli citizens are not born in Palestine, the majority hold at least one other citizenship and what connects them is their belief that their ethno-religious group was promised the land of Palestine and they must subjugate the natives and take it from them.
They are racist. To be a Zionist is racist. To exist and partake of a society built on killing and stealing from Palestinians is racist. Pointing it out is not.
Oh you’re doing the technically correct thing, even though you brought up citizens and I spoke only of society.
Israeli society, by definition, are Zionists. That is what I’m bunching them up with, and you’re twisting what I said to call me racist against Zionists.
I repeat what I said, it’s a sick supremacist society. I never brought up nationality and your attempt to argue that society means nationality is idiotic.
For the record, you’re right after all, I was assuming things about Israel (that it’s a country with more than one generation of people having lived there lol) that are apparently untrue.
What you said about them all having more than one citizenship, is really interesting and telling of the reality there.
This is the comment of the interaction I realized how that place just isn’t a normal country.
Society being roughly the same thing with nationality, is just the truth of other, poorer places. The privilege to “be able to leave”, is not universal, and also currently under attack btw, which is why I was wrongly trying to extend grace to such people over there.
Israel is a fake country though, apparently (not snark, I mean it word for word), and I was extending grace to a 100 year-old settler-colonial rich-guy sadism-retreat.
You are a good person who took criticism that contained anger and looked it up instead of blindly repeating what you’ve previously heard just to win an argument. I was not the most graceful, but you considered what I’m saying instead of how I said it.
I’ve tagged you as an actual ally. I hope we can fight for a better future together.
Those more extreme than Netanyahu are at least still a minority, albeit empowered by their position in the coalition. The majority of the protests against Netanyahu come from the same kind of centrists as the Americans you saw protesting Trump in 2017, who objected to the fascist boomerang coming around to hit them but wouldn’t have raised nearly as much of a fuss about deportations and overseas assassination campaigns if Hillary Clinton had been the one behind them.
I think it’s all too easy to imagine a mass of undifferentiated monsters rather than confronting the connection between unfortunately familiar patterns of political engagement and the slaughter they cause, just because that connection is more obvious closer to the blade of the imperialist knife. Plenty of militaristic genocide deniers are just as much liberal progressives as their counterparts in western countries until the switch flips back to their military brainwashing and they start talking about security guarantees and buffer zones.
Maybe I’m naive for believing that people can change, but I don’t think that everyone who’s been sold on the lie that forever war is the only way for them to be safe is as committed to violence as the backyard terrorists with lawn chairs.
Electoral history suggests “plenty” is not the word
TIL the Israeli filmmakers they’re threatening to murder for making documentaries about the genocide are far right