The Spanish government said on Thursday that it would deploy the army to Ceuta to reinforce security after the crossings, which saw many migrants swim around the border to reach the territory.
The Spanish government said on Thursday that it would deploy the army to Ceuta to reinforce security after the crossings, which saw many migrants swim around the border to reach the territory.
They don’t claim that allah personally appeared to them telling them that they must forgo everything and follow him. They believe in a book. If I was martyred for my faith, it wouldn’t prove anything except that I believed.
The difference here is I am talking about the FIRST HAND WITNESSES, the people who MADE THE CLAIM being martyred for their belief. They believed they saw Jesus risen. They believed He appeared to them physically and ate fish, with multiple at a time seeing the same thing. If someone is going to die in regards for something they saw, it’s likely true.
Just say I saw Kim Jong Un cheating on his wife, and I made the accusation publicly, knowing that I would be blasted to bits at point blank with a cannon for saying so and nothing else to gain except thinking this truth was important. And sure, that happens. It lends more credibility to the scandal of Kim Jong Un cheating on his wife that I gave my life up for it- why would I give my life up for something that’s a lie?
The apostles who gave their life up had nothing to gain. So I firmly believe that they didn’t think it was a lie. Therefore there is no other plausible explanation than that it really happened.
Then you have more denominational ranting, but I think this is the same fallacy that’s prevelant on the internet. I have first hand experience, I have researched a lot of this, I have grown up surrounded by different denominations, I know my statement is factually correct. Yes I know evangelicals, generally they’re concerned with just ensuring you’re actually a Christian and not just someone who says they are because they got confirmed when they were 10. Out of anyone, evangelicals are the least concerned about denominations, because their whole schtick is believing that Christ alone saves - which is what Christianity has generally taught in every denomination anyway, and work towards removing the distressing superstition of works-based salvation.
Tangent because this is my special interest lol
barring Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy - Although these, especially Roman Catholicism, has sat down and actually worked out faith alone to the point that they basically believe the same thing, it’s just the technicalities are different, with Roman Catholics believing when the Holy Spirit regenerates someone, their faith becomes truly visible by their works which also contribute and confirm to their salvation, while Protestants believe that the faith saves and the faith produces works as evidence of salvation. Basically, at the end of the day, a Christian looks exactly the same and they agree on who is a Christian
It’s like whenever there is a thing happening in your country and there’s a sensationalist article which overblows it, and you say “actually no, I don’t get xyz’ed every day” and then someone posts an article saying “actually, you’re wrong”.
I said my denomination is different from my parents, who’s denomination was different from their parents. My friends are interdenominational, so is fellowship my church engages in. If you are going to provide an example of what I am saying is being wrong, you’re either going to provide an example of some war from three hundred years ago or an example of some dude in the middle of nowhere in one congregation with a whole flock of like 30 people being a sectarian douchebag saying he is the one true church.
It isn’t, unless you’re counting sects which aren’t even Christian like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons (although pretty sure they’re quite universalist as well)
Find any Church that publishes a statement of faith. I can guarantee you that it is a paraphrase of the Nicene Creed if they have not flat out pasted the Nicene Creed in there. Denominations are formed over random stuff, usually church structure. Also things like “how much do we eat Jesus during Holy Communion” or “when do we baptise people” (probably the biggest thing because exclusive credobaptists exist, although exclusive credobaptists generally trend towards having a low view of baptism anyway)
If you say this to me one more time I am going to donate £5 to a church’s evangelical outreach on your behalf.
How many firsthand accounts do we have? I found Paul’s in Acts and Corinthians, but Paul also seems to have spoken for James. Did James or anyone else record meeting Jesus after resurrection themselves? I would especially prefer to hear it from more consistent and verifiable historical sources than the bible. The gospels were written in 70-100 AD, long enough for rumors to grow into legends.
No. If someone is going to die for something they saw, it means they believed it. It doesn’t mean it’s true. I maintain that it is far more likely that A) they made it up B) they hallucinated or dreamed it C) they were tricked, or any other number of explanations before “dead man who claimed to be a death god returned from the dead to prove his resurrection, but only to people around at the time and then he disappeared forever.”
What if you did not see what you think you saw? For example, it could have been some kind of criticism of Kim Jong Un, someone impersonating him and pretending to cheat. Or you saw him with his wife, but did not recognize her for any number of reasons. Maybe she was pretending to be someone else because they like it kinky.
Your willingness to die is only evidence that you were convinced, not that the thing you witnessed was true.
They thought they would be rewarded in the afterlife. It is a death cult.
I have provided many plausible alternatives, and scholars have more. Jesus can’t be god because god can’t exist. The old testament contradicts itself and our reality with surprising frequency.
For your area, maybe, but I suspect you were just ignoring the conflicts. Having grown up in southern baptist churches, I know my statement is factually correct, different denominations can and do fight over their interpretations of the bible.
But that’s bullshit. People “accept Jesus” to get saved. Then what? Then they are expected to obey him completely. It immediately becomes all about works, sustaining an abusive relationship under threat of supernatural obliteration.
The evangelicals I knew were insistent that everyone should follow their particular denomination.
So you’ve chosen to reject evidence in advance? Dishonest.
So no one is telling these catholics they’re going to hell? https://www.patheos.com/blogs/bluecollarapologetics/2024/05/all-catholics-are-going-to-hell-really/
What does that make other churches?
https://www.pravmir.com/do-all-non-orthodox-people-go-to-hell/
But they know it’s bad PR to say others are going to hell, so they came up with this complete cop-out:
“If they’re saved, they’re one of us… somehow.” Ridiculous.
Do you value individual experiences? How many Reddit posts do you think we can find where religious people are either condemning each other or venting about being condemned? How many points of data do you need to be convinced of a problem’s existence?
There you go rejecting evidence again. Let’s check the Jehovah’s Witness website:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/
And mormons?
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng
I’m curious why you don’t consider them. If christ was here, we could ask him. Since he isn’t, anyone can claim christianity, and they have exactly as much evidential support for their beliefs as you do.
Your original quote was:
I asked for a citation, as I doubt the veracity of that arbitrary 95%. You said:
This is unhelpful, as we need a many-to-many comparison: many different denominations, and many different beliefs held by each.
This is ignoring a lot of violent history.
https://christianeducatorsacademy.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-christian-denominations-types-beliefs-and-differences/
Already we see three broad factions with fundamentally incompatible beliefs:
Hmm, interesting. So what happens when individuals interpret the bible?
We get even more division, because there is no standard and there never was.
How different are they? Quite. Does the trinity exist? Are we saved by faith, works, or both? Should we listen to a guy in a funny hat, a different guy in a funny hat, or whichever preacher is most convenient?
Are there divine consequences for choosing the wrong denomination? Depends on which denomination you ask.
They all claim to believe in christ, but they all have different interpretations of what that means, what his teachings meant, how to follow them, etc.
“You accused me of supporting terrorism, so I’m going to fund terrorists because you’re annoying” is a concerning mindset for anyone to have.
I can rephrase it as a more polite request: Would you consider making choices that are less likely to result in the needless suffering and death of yourself, me, and everyone else alive today?
But I feel that undermines the urgency. Your casual denial of reality is harmful, deadly. We can’t measure your christ or your god. We can count the real bodies left in the wake of selfish believers.
Please think carefully.